Acham Thavir! Vs Aram Seiya Virumbu!
Can you Imagine actor Vikram giving a dubbing voice for actress Jyothika. How bad such idea sounds? Thank god such thing never happened. However, In Indian movies, we accept the lyricists writing songs that represents feminine feelings. I my opinion female mind is very deep, delicate and complex and could not be very well represented by any male poet, however genius he might be. This can be verified from the songs like “ondraa, irandaa aasaigal” or “Vaseegara” written by poetess Tamarai, which are totally different from songs written by male counterparts (I guess they are not poet or Poetess, just lyricists.)
Similarly, in the world of devotional literature too so many poets wrote songs in “Naayika Bhavam”, which is imagining oneself as lady love and God as lover. But they all appear falling short of expressions when compared to romantic simplicity of women folk singers. Of course, they are not too many to find in the field of Bhakthi Literature. As far as I know Andal Nachiyar is the only female among azwars and Karaikal Ammaiyar among Nayanmars. One can also site Meera as an example.
I have not read much of the poems of any of them. However I have brief introduction to andal. For beginners, "Azhwargal oru eliya arimugam” is the best site. I have many times noticed woman display both childish and sensitive characters simultaneously. Men always fail to understand their subtleties. (Guess Vice Versa is also true)
When Andal begs for a “Parai” a musical device, in tirupavai, she sounds like an adamant kid. However when she declares in this song her love for the God she leaves everyone amazed.
she has offered her body and soul totally to the god. She cannot Imagine to get married to a human being. Such talks sound like, the holy "Havis" ( things offered to gods through ritual called Homam) meant for demi gods, are being consumed by lowly creature like fox. If anybody arised such talk she would cease to exist. She gives this as a warning to "Manmadhan", the god of love, who unites people in marriage.
(Sorry for my worst translation. Hope this helps in understanding the stanza given above.). I don't think any man could have written like this. Just to drive home my point that feminine feelings cannot be expressed well by male counterparts, I tried to show this example
We find such differing perceptions between men and women in every aspect of life. Hope everyone knows "AathiChudi" which is meant for kids. Just think of difference between “Aram seiya virumbu” (like doing righteous things) and “Acham Thavir” (Avoid Fear). One was written by Avvaiyar and another by Barathiyar. One can see how varying the outlooks are.
Hence I always feel it is better to let female artists to handle creative works that tries to express the feelings of women. Guess that will make the outcome more enjoyable.
Note: Desikann sir's translation to the Andal's poem
[O God-of-love! These swollen breasts of mine are meant for Krishna, lord of discus. Like a sneaky jackal from the forest toppling and sniffing the sacrificial Havis that vedic seers had kept for the gods, if you marry me to a mortal, I shall not live, take note.]
Similarly, in the world of devotional literature too so many poets wrote songs in “Naayika Bhavam”, which is imagining oneself as lady love and God as lover. But they all appear falling short of expressions when compared to romantic simplicity of women folk singers. Of course, they are not too many to find in the field of Bhakthi Literature. As far as I know Andal Nachiyar is the only female among azwars and Karaikal Ammaiyar among Nayanmars. One can also site Meera as an example.
I have not read much of the poems of any of them. However I have brief introduction to andal. For beginners, "Azhwargal oru eliya arimugam” is the best site. I have many times noticed woman display both childish and sensitive characters simultaneously. Men always fail to understand their subtleties. (Guess Vice Versa is also true)
When Andal begs for a “Parai” a musical device, in tirupavai, she sounds like an adamant kid. However when she declares in this song her love for the God she leaves everyone amazed.
she has offered her body and soul totally to the god. She cannot Imagine to get married to a human being. Such talks sound like, the holy "Havis" ( things offered to gods through ritual called Homam) meant for demi gods, are being consumed by lowly creature like fox. If anybody arised such talk she would cease to exist. She gives this as a warning to "Manmadhan", the god of love, who unites people in marriage.
(Sorry for my worst translation. Hope this helps in understanding the stanza given above.). I don't think any man could have written like this. Just to drive home my point that feminine feelings cannot be expressed well by male counterparts, I tried to show this example
We find such differing perceptions between men and women in every aspect of life. Hope everyone knows "AathiChudi" which is meant for kids. Just think of difference between “Aram seiya virumbu” (like doing righteous things) and “Acham Thavir” (Avoid Fear). One was written by Avvaiyar and another by Barathiyar. One can see how varying the outlooks are.
Hence I always feel it is better to let female artists to handle creative works that tries to express the feelings of women. Guess that will make the outcome more enjoyable.
Note: Desikann sir's translation to the Andal's poem
[O God-of-love! These swollen breasts of mine are meant for Krishna, lord of discus. Like a sneaky jackal from the forest toppling and sniffing the sacrificial Havis that vedic seers had kept for the gods, if you marry me to a mortal, I shall not live, take note.]
17 Comments:
I am apprehensive about this translation and apologize for mistakes.
Akin to an unholy fox rampaging the forest,
sniffing, licking and violating
the sacrosanct offerings distributed among erudite priests,
devoutly chanting vedic hymns,
to bestow upon the heavenly beings of the skies,
should these blossomed breasts
that belong to Him alone,
divine embodiment of the Sangu-Chakram,
be offered to mere mortals,
I shall cease to live, O Manmadha!
Note - Somehow, did not feel like translating Sangu-Chakram into shell-conch.
By Anonymous, at 5:59 PM
Thank you so much..Hope this helps
By P B, at 6:33 PM
Dear Muthukumar,
More details of Andal is at:
http://desikann.blogspot.com/2004_12_14_desikann_archive.html
For the complete thiruppavai do read it at my blog http://desikann.blogspot.com
( see the links at the bottom of the page )
By Desikan, at 12:27 AM
@desikan
Romba nandri desikan sir. I am great fan of your sujatha pakkam. I saw your blog only recently blogrolled it. Very happy to see your comments. Looking forward to hear more from you. Will definetly check out the links. Thanks again.
By P B, at 5:48 AM
yes, thats true.i stongly agree with u muthukumar...
By Anonymous, at 6:07 AM
PB,
Nice topic. intriguing presentation.
Kudos PB.
But incidentally, 'Thamarai' the lyricist of Kaakka Kaakka, Minnale, Nandha is a female ;-)
By Anonymous, at 2:53 PM
@PB,
Read it one more time.
My bad : You did mention Thamarai as a female lyricist and compared her songs to the ones by her male counterparts. Now I get it. Nevertheless, not many know that there are female lyricists in Tamil cinema so you could have stated that clearly in the opening paragraph.
This topic was an awesome read and that poem is a standing proof for the statements you made in the topic.
Both the translations by 'anonymous' and 'Desikan' brought out the semantics of the poem quite well, but could not capture the feelings in it. But, I appreciate both of you guys tryin your hand at translating that piece.
Interestingly, Andal says the very talk that she is gonna be given to a mere mortal will make her cease to live. Not even being married to a mere mortal. That was ultimate !
Great piece there da PB.
Kudos and keep diggin out stuff like this. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
By Anonymous, at 6:06 PM
@satheesh
Thanks for our support and interest.
By P B, at 6:25 PM
PB ,
i also thought about the same thing coincidentally..how these male poets can say how the girl feels?.. we cannot empathise with many lyrics...
aandal quote was great..
By Maayaa, at 8:12 PM
Muthu, I agree with what you are trying to say...it is difficult for a man to describe a woman's feelings accurately in poems or what not. But is it impossible? We can't generalize, can we?
As an aside, as far as describing the beauty of a woman is concerned, it is definitely a man's job (and vice versa). What do u say? :)
-KP.
By Anonymous, at 7:37 AM
@KP
I am saying it is impossible to explain in the exact way..I am not worried about who writes the cine songs male or female, the effort is to highlight the fact that man can never write about women like women themselves, right from the olden days to current date. The cinema things are just to add masala.
By P B, at 8:14 AM
But my question is can we generalize that?
Will there never ever be a man who can describe a woman's feelings as good as any other woman?
-KP.
By Anonymous, at 8:45 AM
Hahaha, good one da Satheesh...PB waiting for ur comments...(Btw, did u see what women want? If not, u should. I know u do not like to discuss movies in ur blogs, but still...:))
-KP.
By Anonymous, at 10:09 AM
@KP
Probably one has to ask a woman. I dont know in first place how woman think and whether men can express similar feeling in their songs. When I see some examples I can find the marked difference as is eveident from songs quoted.
By P B, at 10:27 AM
May be YinYang concept a ingeyum use pannalaam - There is a woman hidden within every man and vice-versa and if one is able to tap into that feeling, then it might give an insight into what the other person is experiencing.
Aana Andalloda paadal was fascinating and profound. GR8 job!
By DR, at 10:18 AM
Tamil pattula Garvam,
Serukku,oru chinna agambavam/aanavam, and Possessiveness all related to the feeling of love ellame express aagi iruku.
As for as PB's argument is concerned I am in favor by 65-35 ratio.
-vv
By Anonymous, at 12:17 PM
Every human is a combination of Female and Male.. so any good poet can write about other gender's feeling.!
By Anonymous, at 12:42 PM
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